20 YEARS OF GUNDAM, AS TOLD BY YOSHIYUKI TOMINO

November 15, 1999 (Monday) 5:00-7:00PM
Sunrise 3F conference room in Kamiigusa, Tokyo
Interview: Takashi Watanabe & Yoshiharu Tokugi
Text: Chizuko Imanishi
Photography: Yoshiaki Kobayashi

Mobile Suit Gundam brought revolutionary change to the Japanese animation industry. Now, years later, Director Tomino has once again taken up the mantle and is diligently working on the television series ∀ Gundam. We ask him about his mindset from creating the original “First Gundam” (as we’ll refer to the 1979 inaugural TV series) to the making of ∀ Gundam as we cross over into 2000.

FINALLY ABLE TO MAKE THE GUNDAM I WANTED

――It’s no exaggeration to say that in the twenty years since the original Gundam was made, the anime industry, or rather all of Japanese animation, was under the influence of Gundam in virtually every aspect. Most people working in this industry today were inspired to pursue this path after watching the original series. Turn A Gundam is being created now as we cross into 2000. Director, what are your thoughts on this situation?

Tomino: It was mostly a stroke of luck, and what comes after that is actually quite similar to something I read in the newspaper today, so it feels like fate in a way. Personally, I don’t have much to say; it’s been a fortunate series of events for me. As I’ve aged, I’ve become able to express this, and I’ve strived in these two years to accept that even the lucky breaks are a blessing.

――In 1979, when you made the original Gundam, you were 38. For those of us who were students back then, it was a work we encountered at a pivotal time in our youth. Had you set out to depict a quintessential portrayal of youth?

Tomino: No, I didn’t start with a specific awareness of that. It just happened to turn out that way. There was no deliberate planning or intent to do it. This is true even for ∀ Gundam right now. But back then, I was told the ratings were terrible, absolutely awful, for an evening program that needed to retain viewers to the very end. It was highly criticized and even faced cancellation. Horrible things happened, like our character designer Yasuhiko falling ill. Right up until the production wrapped, I never had a good experience – there was no upside. So, it’s a blessing how it turned out.

As for the portrayal of youth, it wasn’t planned. I just wanted to try something cinematic, even with a robot theme. It was a challenge. And in the process of crafting my own story, I realized I was strangely more adept at telling an ensemble tale than focusing on a single hero and heroine. So, the work clearly revealed my peculiar tastes and habits. It’s all in hindsight. But that result has been both a positive and a negative that I’ve had to grapple with over the past 20 years, so it’s been quite challenging.

―― First Gundam seemed to repeatedly address a fundamental theme that “adults” don’t understand, eventually overcoming this through the idealized concept of the Newtype. Was that the story you intended?

Tomino: That interpretation fits if you’re looking within the narrative, but it wasn’t just about that. Having worked in the industry, I’d been repeatedly told that as a television anime – an utterly vulgar medium – robot anime was the lowest of the low when it came to genres. So, for me, it was far more important to raise the baseline quality of the genre itself in tackling this project.

Even in a robot series, I wanted to show it could be cinematic and convey meaningful messages, hoping it would be recognized as a higher form of media. That motivation drove my work over the five years following First Gundam.

To put it plainly, I wanted film producers to see my work and think, “If this is what Tomino can do, then let him make a movie.” That was more important to me than anything else. Now, 20 years later, I’ve finally reached this point. It’s taken two decades to get here.

It wasn’t until a decade had passed that I started to see people inspired by Gundam entering the film industry. That’s when I began to feel, “Oh good, finally.” But considering my age at that point, I’d already missed the boat to spearhead making films myself. So, over the last decade, I harbored an incredibly frustrating feeling about that.

――So, 20 years later, at the age of 58, you’ve prepared this visual stage and have now started ∀ Gundam.

Tomino: Yes, that’s right. Only now have I been allowed to do what I wanted with ∀ Gundam, and I feel like I’m finally getting the hang of filmmaking. But looking back, I’m glad I didn’t jump into live-action five years ago. Just yesterday, I was surprised to see how simple the visuals in Close Encounters of the Third Kind were. I thought, “Wait, was it this bad?”

If I had rushed into live-action, I might have made similar mistakes. Not doing so seems like fate, and I’m thankful for it. It made me truly appreciate that to create visual works, you absolutely have to build up experience over a long stretch of time. I’ve learned that it took these 20 years of learning and studying to be in a position to make a film. Realizing this at 58 is something I’m grateful for.

GUNDAM COULDN’T HAVE BEEN MADE IF I ONLY THOUGHT ABOUT GUNDAM

――With ∀ Gundam, it seems like rather than trying to neatly dissect subtle emotions, you’re putting them out raw as they are. Do I have that right?

Tomino: With ∀ Gundam, there’s more going on than just that. Looking back over the 20-year history of Japanese animation – and I don’t just mean my own career, but creators, senders, promoters, and anyone involved with visual content – there’s been a growing tendency to take liberties and oversimplify. Many works reflect the bad habits and flaws of the creators. I’ve been shown these things to the point of annoyance over the past 5-6 years. And what’s worse is that in the post-Gundam era, this is stuff made by adults. Most creators seem to misunderstand what film and anime should be. For example, many works fall into traps that I consciously avoided in First Gundam.

Seeing things like that firsthand made me reflect and think, “Film and anime shouldn’t be like this.” So, I made ∀ Gundam with that self-criticism in mind.

If I had only thought about Gundam for these 20 years, ∀ Gundam wouldn’t have come to fruition. It’s a bit presumptuous to say, but the true impact of ∀ Gundam might not be seen until another 10 years. I see it as an attempt to raise the bar again and reconstruct the potentially battered and tattered media of anime and film.

――Watching ∀ Gundam, I feel it shows the potential of just how much anime can achieve. But in reality, it seems that the predominant way of enjoying it is more related to collector culture, such as collecting Gunpla or Gashapon, rather than simply enjoying the work itself. In that sense, I feel there are more popular works with easy-to-understand characters and stories that lend themselves well to merchandise and games and even works created with that in mind. How do you see a work like ∀ Gundam in light of that trend?

Tomino: That’s a complex issue and can’t be answered simply. Because for me, I don’t see anything wrong with that way of enjoying. Collecting is fine. There’s nothing wrong with having a nerdy kind of fun. I have those tendencies myself, so I understand. The problem is when everyone blindly follows this trend.

For instance, I was honestly delighted that the Pokemon movie release in America had the fourth-highest opening day box office ever, 1 billion yen. Deep down, it stung since something like that was what I’d wanted to create, too (laughs). But the reality is Pokemon achieved it. What does that mean? Sure, maybe kids got into it through collecting cards or playing games. But could fan engagement on that level alone really yield box office numbers that high? I don’t think so.

Yet I’d wager that no one involved with Pokemon in Japan or supportive of it was anticipating anything like that level of explosive success. Because they don’t view the work through that lens. Personally, I don’t think the Pokemon movie was all that awful. If anything, it felt like they tried hard. Did anyone covering it – anime magazines or the like – acknowledge that properly?

That’s the crux of the issue. It doesn’t matter how derivative the starting point is, whether it’s Gunpla, cards, games, or whatever. Anime is still film, and I insist on calling it that. Films inherently contain literary and politic¹ elements, which everyone seems to forget. That leaves only the original creators and directors earnestly pushing themselves to the limit. I want people to understand that a bit more. Simply evaluate those elements properly. But instead, there’s zero evaluation. It’s the same with ∀ Gundam – fundamentally, people don’t comprehend the core of film.

This misunderstanding isn’t because they don’t get it. They’ve decided this is how anime, how Gundam, is meant to be viewed. Unless that changes, what I’m trying to do with ∀ Gundam will never make sense to them. On the flip side, people unfamiliar with Gundam tune in on a whim. What gratifies me most is female viewers in their 20s who happen to catch it in that odd evening time slot and find themselves surprisingly enjoying it. Lately, I’ve gotten feedback like, “I accidentally start watching and can’t stop, can’t tear myself away from the TV.” They’re not watching it consciously as a Gundam show. For me, that’s something encouraging.

THE INSTINCTUAL FASCINATION WITH ∀ GUNDAM AMONG THOSE DIRECTLY INVOLVED

Tomino: Thinking along those lines, maybe robot anime has simply become another creative work. We may have reached the point where it’s not about robot or Gundam works anymore. And if so, that could signify these works rediscovering functions and abilities inherent to quality content. But even today, I’ve met precious few people who have properly evaluated those capabilities and functions. So, creating something Gundam-esque, I honestly don’t know how much of what I’m trying to do comes across or how much audiences are enjoying aspects of this work. The only definite reality is disastrously low viewership ratings.

In that sense, by undertaking ∀ Gundam as the original Gundam passed its 20th anniversary and started declining towards cancellation, I feel like I’m again working to raise up the foundations of animation and the film medium.

And again, for some tangible results to emerge, it will probably take 10 to 20 years. But with what I’m attempting in ∀ Gundam, I anticipate seeing outcomes and feeling gratified within a decade. Until then, it’s not profitable, so it’s tough. Even so, now I sense having no choice but to devote the time. In the entertainment world, it seems like you can usually gamble on a smash hit right out the gate and start competing on that momentum. But surprisingly with film, there can be long dormant periods. So for two to three years after novels came out, to reaching film fans, finally gaining traction and recognition among the general public – there’s a sense of popularity blossoming only at that late stage.

In that sense, I’m okay with it taking 2-3 years. Especially in the case of ∀ Gundam, I’m absolutely certain it will turn out that way because it’s easy to watch. And above all, what I’ve realized for the first time this time is that a few years ago, when I was directing several TV series, studio personnel, especially those involved with sound and voice actors, started saying, “It’s fun working on this show.”

I’ve never once experienced that before. Not even with First Gundam. All I used to hear was, “I don’t get it.” But this time, surprisingly early on, the people directly involved in the project started showing a genuine interest instinctively. On top of that, there were a fair number of animators, the “if it’s Gundam, count me out” crowd, now willing to pitch in because it was ∀ Gundam. Only then did I start thinking, “Oh, well, okay! I guess I was right to shoot for this after all.”

In other words, when it comes to mecha, to Gundam, the staff is pretty sick of it at this point. In early 1999, if I remember right, I had several animators currently in the industry explicitly say things to me like, “So it’s Gundam again, huh? You sure do like it,” or “No joke, there’s no way in hell I’m doing that!” Not one person said they wanted to work on it. Can you believe it? Even people who wanted to animate Gundam were tired of the same old formula.

Yet on the seller side – people needing to somehow rake in money from Gundam properties – I heard not one such complaint. I became aware of this situation about three years ago, and I realized something like ∀ Gundam was the only option, which set me down the path of this current project. Thanks to that, I now feel a sense of relief having finished two cours, and it feels like we’ve finally hit our stride.

That said, even for someone like me who has been working in TV anime for over 30 years, this project was frankly intimidating at first. But I reckoned if a youngster attempting it would be far more daunting, so as the career veteran at 58, I was the only one who could step up and demonstrate it could be done – that was my honest motivation. Part of it is professional intuition and leveraging my career. And I’m now hoping others will follow the ∀ Gundam example from here on. In that sense, I feel this work has a sort of trailblazing quality about it.

A WORK IS SOMETHING THAT COMES TO FRUITION WITHIN AN INDIVIDUAL

Tomino: Among the viewers of ∀ Gundam, I firmly believe at least 5-6 individuals have the talent to enter this industry and lend their skills. Even now, some anime magazines appreciate the approach of ∀ Gundam. So, I don’t think there’s a reason to be utterly hopeless. Moreover, many people currently want to return to a more neutral stance in the industry.

But at that point, it’s crucial not to fall into the trap of chasing sales and popularity on a scale of six months to a year – you have to realize plunging down that path would be disastrous. If you get snared by those trends, for your own good, you must check your steps and exercise some degree of restraint.

Though that doesn’t necessitate total inaction. Just a little is enough. Otherwise, you won’t survive commercially. Simply maintaining that small reserve, including myself, should enable sustaining our work 5, 10 years down the line, too. But if instead we’re swept along uncontrolled, I’d confidently say there will be no chance of a 10 years later.

――Do you now feel that response from ∀ Gundam right now?

Tomino: No, to be honest, I don’t feel any response yet, which is frankly still frightening. But again, chalk that up to my career experience – it feels like my sense isn’t far off the mark.

―――― In ∀ Gundam, there’s been the depiction of nuclear missiles buried, reminiscent of the era of First Gundam. This serves as a reminder of the catastrophic events that occurred in the past, highlighting the importance of ensuring such things never happen again. I felt that symbolized how the original Gundam’s legacy 20 years ago has had a karmic dark side².

Tomino: So, for the current state of anime, I see Gundam as very much having positive and negative aspects. It’s because those existed that I feel a desire now to steer back towards more righteous ground. If I had the capability, I could have easily accomplished that earlier. But instead, it took time – I’ve only just recently gained something like the requisite temperament. Though I wouldn’t say I’ve grasped it firmly yet.

Honestly, there have been tough parts, and I really wished someone else would take over this work while I assist. However, as the one who started Gundam, I find myself inevitably drawn back in. It’s challenging, but that speaks to how a work fully comes to completion within an individual – it can’t be patched up piecemeal by others. I think that’s what hit home hardest with ∀ Gundam. Creators and filmmakers need to view their works critically in this light. Take the 007 film series, for instance. No matter how awful the movie is, if it’s Sean Connery as Bond, it was still good. But substitute another actor, and no amount of money or effort measures up to the Sean Connery days. I think it’s the same principle – ultimately, a work belongs to an individual, be it a director or an actor. Replacements don’t work. In that case, I feel it’s better to remake things from scratch.

THE ACT OF CREATING IS NOT EVOLUTIONARY

―― Now, after 20 years, Gundam carries on into the 2000s with ∀ Gundam, so I imagine you must have profound emotions?

Tomino: No, not really. The true turning point was when the basic concept of ∀ Gundam was finalized. That happened two years ago, and while it might sound a bit exaggerated, I was profoundly grateful to have conceived such an era. If we had stuck with the old Gundam approach, like setting it 500 years in the future, it would have been impossible to achieve what we have now.

―― As the lyrics of the opening theme put it, “Who decided that time has to flow into the future?”

Tomino: Exactly. If I’d only thought about the future, this never could have happened. Realizing that the act of creation is not an evolutionary process was the greatest treasure for me. Those lyrics were conceived with that in mind. And gaining that perspective, while I don’t know if I have 3 years left, 5 years, or 10 years until my death, I feel I can keep working in film – though that term is something of a misnomer – I truly want to keep producing visual works right up until I die.

But I have no idea what lies past the year 2000. Anyone working on or hoping to work on Gundam would likely be disappointed to hear that, but creating works is not such a kind process. Works belong to a generation, after all.

―― As ∀ Gundam moves towards its finale, could you share your thoughts as of today, and perhaps a message for the viewers?

Tomino: I’m split 50/50 on whether Gundam is actually nearing a conclusion or not heading towards one at all. It’s likely to stay that way, but we may be drawing a bit closer to a finale. I can’t really say for sure yet.

―― So it feels like a beginning?

Tomino: No, not a beginning either. Unusually, I have a strong premonition we’re approaching an end. So I’m actually quite perplexed about what to do from there on (laughs). But I can say it will only get more exciting from here on out. We’ll go to the moon, and come back too. I honestly don’t know what sort of story awaits amidst all that, though. But since we’ve somehow struggled through this far, I can’t say now but that everything will work out fine going forward, too. Things may take a tragic turn, though.

―― What are your thoughts on plans for the next Gundam after ∀ Gundam?

Tomino: Well… I don’t believe there will be a new “Gundam.” I still don’t know for sure, but whether that happens or not hinges greatly on ∀ Gundam. And ∀ Gundam seems to contain elements, bringing it closer to a definite conclusion. Most of the production staff get that and give a general sense of “Well, guess that’s how it’ll go.” But beyond that, I can’t envision anything at all right now. Not that I don’t want to think about it, but rather, I feel that won’t happen. That said, a desire does exist among the crew, and faintly within myself as well, to make ∀ Gundam into a series if possible. Considering my age, though, I can’t deny feeling it’s likely unrealistic. In that sense, regarding ∀ Gundam, the time may have come where I need to shift my mindset to entrusting it to the younger generation. My age is starting to frustrate me after all.

But reaching completion next spring, I don’t think ∀ Gundam will go down as an unfulfilled ambition for me. Having watched the voice recording finish today, too, I’m confident that won’t happen – I have a good sense things will work out well enough.

Translation Notes:

¹ In this instance, politic is used to mean wise and showing the ability to make the right decisions.
² In this instance, the interviewer is saying Gundam has had a “duality of being influential yet burdened with its own ‘sins.'”