MOBILE SUIT Z GUNDAM: SETTING BASE
An Interview with Tadashi Nagase

There’s More Than One Kind of “Realism”

The scientific-sounding jargon, designations, and various settings that supported Zeta Gundam. The man responsible for transforming the new fictional reality created by the original Mobile Suit Gundam into the authentic futuristic feel of the “Universal Century” was Tadashi Nagase, credited for the sci-fi setting in the “Setting Base.” We spoke with him about the secrets behind creating that distinctive feel, navigated by our regular Koichi Inoue from Sunrise, who was also involved in the project planning.

“GUNDAM CENTURY” Was the Beginning of It All

――Mr. Nagase, I understand you were in charge of the setting research. First, could you tell us about the circumstances that led to your involvement with Mobile Suit Zeta Gundam?

Tadashi Nagase: In 1981, I was editing the “Sora wo Kakeru Senshi-tachi GUNDAM CENTURY” (※1) book published by Minori Shobo. It was originally based on a fan-made publication, but somehow, parts of it ended up becoming official. At the time, the Mobile Suit Gundam production team honestly didn’t have high hopes for anime enthusiasts. So, director Yoshiyuki Tomino and the others tried to draw experts in the military, space, and other fields into the fictional world. But back then, just hearing terms like “Minovsky Particles” or “mega particle cannon” was enough to make those real experts roll their eyes. That’s where I came in – someone who was writing about science and technology in mecha magazines that were outrageously sci-fi-esque. And there’s no way a person writing that kind of sci-fi tech content wouldn’t be an otaku, right? (laughs) All sorts of trivial theories started popping up left and right.

Koichi Inoue: Oh yeah, everyone was obsessing over the tiniest details. (laughs) Director Tomino himself actually thinks all that stuff is beside the point, but some people seem to get the wrong idea.

Nagase: That’s right. It was all retroactively created by various people after the show ended, like the “RX-78” and such.

Inoue: That numbering scheme was apparently thought up by Masanobu Komaki, who was editor-in-chief of “Animec” (Rapport) magazine at the time.

Nagase: Because he liked the Mazda RX-7, apparently.

Inoue: A lot of the “Shindousha” (※2) members who worked on “Zeta Gundam” would go on to use their favorite car model numbers for mobile suits in later Gundam manga, too.

Nagase: You know, there was actually a precedent for this whole “GUNDAM CENTURY” thing. There was this American book called the “Star Trek Handbook” where a bunch of hardcore Trekkies made up diagrams and backstories for all the sci-fi gadgets and vehicles on the show, and a lot of it ended up getting incorporated into later official Star Trek works. I guess you could call it a trendsetter. It was a time when people felt like they could just throw out all sorts of wild ideas, regardless of the country.

Inoue: “GUNDAM CENTURY” was based on a fan publication that even Kenichi Matsuzaki, who wrote Gundam scripts, took part in. At the end of the day, it was really just a passion project. But in hindsight, it’s crazy how many people who went on to become big names were involved.

Nagase: Shoji Kawamori, who was a college student at the time, was always stirring the pot about something or other. (laughs) Haruhiko Mikimoto, on the other hand, was as quiet as could be and just kept churning out drawings of cute girls. A whole bunch of the people involved back then ended up seamlessly transitioning into the anime industry.

Inoue: Shigeru Morita, who’s a big-shot screenwriter now, is another example.

Nagase: That scene had model kit magazines making these elaborate dioramas and scratch-built models, the works.

Inoue: Sunrise’s Masao Iizuka was completely fed up with the whole thing. (laughs) And the head of planning, Eiji Yamaura, was already laying the groundwork for what would eventually become the “MSV (Mobile Suit Variations)” line. He kept hitting up Kunio Okawara for new designs, to the point where he started to worry that people were taking it all way too seriously. And it was all released right on the heels of the Soldiers of Sorrow movie, so the hype was off the charts.

Nagase: I actually went to see that movie in theaters when we were making GUNDAM CENTURY. I was sitting next to this old guy who had his grandson with him, but the grandpa was the one on the edge of his seat the whole time. (laughs)

Inoue: Well, sure, when you get right down to it, it was basically a war drama. (wry smile) Sunrise was getting bombarded with nitpicky questions from every direction, and it was driving them up the wall, so finally, they just threw up their hands and said, “Hey, you know what, let the fans go nuts with whatever supplemental worldbuilding they want as long as it’s outside of the core series.” And what do you know, that ended up feeding into stuff like the “MSV” line with its “Zaku Type XX” variants and all that.

――What were your thoughts on MSV?

Nagase: I saw them as kindred spirits. You had model kit magazine ads with cheeky taglines like “Betcha can’t build this Gundam, kid!” (laughs)

Inoue: There was even this one magazine called “UFO and Space” that straight-up ran an article claiming “Gundam and Star Wars were created based on top-secret tips from real aliens,” if you can believe that. (laughs) Here’s a fun fact, though, before we brought Nagase on as our technical advisor, director Tomino actually wanted to see if we could get NASDA (the precursor to JAXA) to work with us on the show. But it was a different time back then. Their knee-jerk response was basically, “Uh, you know this is fiction, right?” and “Sorry, we can’t be associated with spreading misinformation.” But around the time of Mobile Suit Gundam F91, I happened to meet someone in the space development field for something unrelated. They were shocked when they found out, like, “Hold up, you guys were striving for realistic sci-fi way back then?” Nowadays, even honest-to-goodness experts in those fields have become huge fans of Gundam, and some people even went into those fields professionally because they were such big fans.

Nagase: So director Tomino reached out to me after stumbling across this column I was writing for Mechanic Magazine (World Photo Press). He was probably thinking I must be some kind of specialist, but when he brought me in, he found out I was really just a giant nerd. (laughs)

The Original Series as the “Old Testament” and “Zeta Gundam” as the “New Testament”!?

Inoue: I think Nagase and Director Tomino really hit it off.

――What kind of conversations did you have back then?

Nagase: I was always bringing up Kenji Miyazawa to Director Tomino. I know it sounds a bit highbrow, but hey, it wasn’t all just nerdy anime chatter.

Inoue: Is there really any connection between Kenji Miyazawa and Zeta Gundam, though? (laughs)

Nagase: Oh, Kawamori is a huge Miyazawa fanboy, too. Guess they both just have a thing for the fantastical and whimsical. Anyway, with Zeta, I was trying to work in some real science trivia as a little nod to the hardcore sci-fi geeks and military otaku out there. But in the end, I think the mecha modelers were the only ones who really picked up on it. (laughs)

――So, what exactly was your role in the production?

Nagase: I was mainly involved in establishing the base setting, the foundation. Didn’t touch the actual story though. That was all Tomino’s domain.

Inoue: So you were basically in charge of what we’d call the “sci-fi consultation.”

Nagase: Yep, I was credited as “Setting Base.” At the time, I was living out in Chofu, pretty close to the Tokyo Visual Effects Lab (※3) – it was basically halfway between there and the Sunrise studio. So every week, I’d swing by to check out the episode cuts (※4), then head over to the studio for some meetings.

Inoue: A lot of times, Nagase would pick up Mizunase (※5) on the way to the screening, and then they’d just come straight to the studio together afterward.

Nagase: Honestly, I was always a bit skeptical about the overall plot of Zeta Gundam. (laughs) Like with Kamille’s whole personality and deal. I mean, it was only after his character showed up that words like “snapping” (キレる) really became part of the mainstream lingo, wasn’t it?

Inoue: Director Tomino is always very attuned to the zeitgeist when he’s making story decisions. I feel like he has a nose for those little cultural “buds” that are just starting to sprout in each era. I mean, look at Gundam ZZ – the main character there was like the total opposite of Kamille, just this happy-go-lucky kid at first glance.

Nagase: Tomino is a guy who’s always deliberately crafting his public persona. He definitely gets that there’s a distinction between fiction and reality.

Inoue: He’ll direct a series while also sort of molding himself into a version that matches the vibe of that particular work.

――There does seem to be this interplay of a kind of “wise, zen perspective” and youthful spirit in Tomino’s works and in Tomino himself as a creator. This two-pronged approach. It’s amazing how he almost writes himself into the production in a way. In any case, things like the “Ballute” were mind-blowing for viewers back then. It felt so incredibly realistic and plausible.

Nagase: In the movie “2010” (released in Japan in 1985), there’s something called a “Ballute” that appears on screen. But our project actually came up with the idea first. These days, you can find basically any information you need online, but back then… word processors had only just started becoming a thing in Japan. Arthur C. Clarke was living in Sri Lanka when they were making 2010, and he was sending emails back and forth with the production team in America. Using, like, an educational satellite that had finished its original mission to transmit messages via teletype. Anyway, that “Ballute” concept I mentioned? Taken straight from a NASA research paper.
Meanwhile, here I was in Japan – I literally took a bus all the way from Kichijoji to this science and tech document archive located behind Hikarigaoka Park to make copies of the exact same report, thinking, “This could be used for the paratrooper units of the Universal Century.” That’s the kind of stuff I was doing. At a certain point, it was just like, okay, let’s reel back the super science stuff a bit. But of course, it doesn’t mean a thing if you can’t put cool action and visuals on screen. Because, at the end of the day, it’s still gotta be an anime. (laughs)

Inoue: There’s no doubt that Transformers had an influence on the mobile suit concepts in Zeta Gundam.

Nagase: The absolute prerequisite was that they transform. So, in that sense, maybe it actually worked out for the best that the Wave Rider’s debut got pushed back a bit.

――I guess a little luck always factors into any big hit (laughs), but what was the general workflow like for you?

Nagase: Like I said, this was right when word processors were starting to catch on. The internet age was still a ways off. So Director Tomino basically ordered the two main scriptwriters to go out and buy Oasys machines (※6). They’d hash out the finer plot details and exchange that stuff via hard copies. That was the quickest way to do it at the time. For screenwriting, word processors were a godsend back then.

Inoue: No internet, after all. But still, word processors made the editing process so much easier. You could find and replace names in a snap, cut and tighten up the writing, and shift whole chunks of text around… And the page numbers would automatically update with each change. Back in the handwritten manuscript days, you were stuck erasing and rewriting, crossing out blocks of text and copying it over, literally cutting and pasting with scissors and tape… Huge pain.

Nagase: Word processors caught on real quick with sci-fi authors in particular. And even among those, the Oasys had a pretty reasonable price point. I mean, “reasonable” is relative – the Oasys 100J that I picked up was still 600,000 yen, and that was with a 50% off new model discount. (laughs)

――They were that expensive!? I guess the boost in efficiency made it worth the investment, though.

Nagase: One thing I noticed – once you start writing with a word processor, your novels start using way more kanji. Because you can just convert everything, even the really obscure characters. (laughs)

Inoue: And computers were even pricier than word processors back then.

Nagase: Japanese input systems were still pretty iffy and unreliable, too.

――It was an era when books sold like hotcakes, so I imagine authors were making good money and could afford to splurge on high-end tech like that.

Inoue: The thing is, not many of those early machines could handle vertical text. A lot of writers just couldn’t get in the zone with horizontal writing, I guess.

――So how did your expertise and ideas actually get utilized in the production?

Inoue: Picture the original Mobile Suit Gundam as the “Old Testament”, and then Zeta Gundam is the “New Testament”. But the tricky thing is, since Zeta was building directly off of the old Gundam, we kinda ran with it without going back and really scrutinizing the original series’ setting. Even though we were making Zeta 5 years later in real life, in the story it was set 7 years after the One Year War. That inconsistency threw us for a loop a few times.

Nagase: I mean, we had the Lagrange points and things like that for the moon-side Sides worked out in the setting documents.

Inoue: But we didn’t have enough staff members who really “got” all that. Like wondering, “Wait, can you actually see Earth from Side 3?” or “Is Side 3 even visible from the far side of the moon?” Now that I think about it – were we ever able to fully integrate the whole “Minovsky physics” deal into Zeta’s core setting?

Nagase: No, we weren’t able to incorporate it very well. Director Tomino really wanted to just ditch Minovsky physics altogether, but in the end, the cool factor of having mobile suits skim right over the surface won out.

Inoue: We pulled off those kinds of shots in Combat Mecha Xabungle, but man, animating those hovercrafts kicking up clouds of dust was a real pain. It’s so easy to mess up and damage the cels when you’re painting particles like that with the airbrush. The uneven desert surface made compositing the background and cel layers a ton of extra work. Armored Trooper Votoms had it easy in comparison – flat metal feet, no dust, just nice, even surface all around. (laughs)

Nagase: The way you construct the visuals changes depending on the setting. Looking back, the original series and the movie trilogy had this real old-school production style. I feel like Zeta was when things started shifting toward the workflow that’s closer to the modern standard.

Inoue: Director Tomino was always saying, “I want to do something completely different from the first Gundam.” That was his big thing.

Zeta Gundam’s Setting Began with “Transformation First and Foremost”

――What are your thoughts on the Wave Rider design?

Nagase: Think of it like a paper airplane flipped upside-down. With the wings angled downward like that, shockwaves generate heat on the underside. The concept was to inject propellant into that area and use the heat for additional thrust. At the time it was purely theoretical, but in recent years there have been some real-world developments along similar lines. It was one of those “ahead of its time” ideas for reentry.

――Was the atmospheric reentry concept Director Tomino’s idea?

Inoue: Well, from the very beginning it was decided that the Gundam would transform. That naturally led to the question of how to implement a new and innovative approach to atmospheric reentry. And that’s how the Flying Armor concept came about.

Nagase: That’s where I brought up the idea of the ballute as a potential option.

Inoue: In the end, the Flying Armor won out as the more visually striking choice.

Nagase: The underlying assumption was that once other mobile suits were introduced with alternative means of reentry, the ballute would quickly become obsolete and vulnerable by comparison. (chuckles)

――The Garuda-class setting, with its super-large aircraft capable of remaining airborne indefinitely, is a remarkably compelling concept as well.

Nagase: That kind of idea has been around for quite some time, actually. The notion of a nuclear-powered aircraft that can stay in flight indefinitely has been proposed as a strategic asset for the “final war” scenario. I mean, nuclear submarines can stay submerged for incredibly long periods of time as long as you’re not worried about air quality.

――The series is brimming with imaginative science fiction concepts.

Nagase: Unfortunately, anime fans at the time just weren’t all that interested in those kinds of concepts.

――Even a detail like the artificial gravity block on the Argama felt exceptionally realistic and well-considered.

Nagase: To be perfectly honest, if you really scrutinize it, there are certainly some logical inconsistencies and holes in the design. However, by glossing over those issues, the end result is quite convincing and visually impressive.

Inoue: The panoramic monitor cockpit was another innovation introduced in Zeta Gundam, wasn’t it? By using monitors to display the surroundings, you could justify fitting a camera inside the mobile suit cockpit. And since the monitors are just displaying a digital rendition of space, you have some creative license – it doesn’t necessarily have to be pure black, but could instead be a bluish hue. With a pitch-black background, the animation staff has to be extremely cautious about dust and scratches on the physical cels. I suspect the panoramic monitor may have been Director Tomino’s idea. He’s always seeking out novel and unconventional approaches to mecha design.

Nagase: Personally, I likely would have avoided such an extensive virtualized cockpit interface in my own design.

The Meaning of “Realism” Varies Depending on Perspective

Nagase: This is something that’s been debated for ages in military otaku circles – are giant robots more like fighter planes, or are they tanks? If they were fighter-sized, they’d have to be less dense than water, which doesn’t make sense. But then, when they walk, the way they lumber about with heavy, ground-shaking steps feels more evocative of a tank. This was a consideration that Patlabor took into account – the Labors in that series were conceptually based on automobiles and construction vehicles.

Inoue: In terms of technical specifications, the Gundam is actually extraordinarily lightweight for its size at a mere 60 tons. But to counterbalance that, the lore introduces this fictional “Luna Titanium Alloy” material that lends it a degree of credibility.

――The Gundam franchise played a significant role in codifying the concept of “anime realism,” but to what degree were you consciously striving for realism during the production of Zeta Gundam?

Nagase: It’s crucial to understand that “realism” is a highly variable concept that can mean very different things depending on the context and framing. First and foremost, realism and reality are not equivalent. The realism of a narrative is distinct from the realism of a technical setting. The key is to employ the appropriate type of realism in the appropriate context.

Inoue: Nagase, were you the one responsible for defining the mobile suit specifications in Zeta Gundam?

Nagase: No, I wasn’t directly involved in creating the quantitative specs. I believe that would have fallen under the purview of the editorial staff.

Inoue: Must’ve been the setting designers and the crew around them, then.

――Compared to the original Mobile Suit Gundam, there’s a distinct sense that the mechanical designs in Zeta Gundam were constructed with an almost paradoxical level of internal consistency and rigor. Many of those conventions went on to be carried forward in subsequent installments of the franchise. At the same time, you have details like mobile suits powered by fusion reactors, yet only having an output of around 3000 horsepower – all sorts of curious imbalances and discrepancies. I imagine there was some intentional rationale behind those design choices.

Nagase: Well, the GUNDAM CENTURY materials quite literally specify “horsepower” as the unit of output, so there is that. (laughs)

Inoue: But if you really stop and scrutinize it, you have to question what exactly those output and horsepower figures are even supposed to represent in the first place. Every individual actuator and drive system would logically have different requirements, and that’s not even getting into the question of the power plant and fuel. Realistically, there’s just no way any of that would work without some kind of compact fusion reactor.

Nagase: With science fiction, at a certain point you inevitably have to invoke some form of “magic” to bridge the gaps and make the concepts work on a narrative level. And to sell that magic, you need to come up with some cool-sounding terminology and technical jargon. Striking that balance is a core part of my role. But beyond that, you also have to make a deliberate choice about which framework of “realism” you’re going to commit to and operate within. It seems that even now, a lot of people struggle to fully grasp that distinction.

The Advent of One-Off Production Heralds a New Era for Mecha Design

―― You’re right, it does feel like a lot of fans are more fixated on the numbers and specs than the underlying logic. It was the same deal with the whole “supercar boom”. People would get all worked up over catalog top speeds that differed by 2 km/h. (laughs)

Nagase: One of the conundrums that I grappled with extensively back then was the question of how new mobile suit models could feasibly be developed and rolled out at such a rapid pace. I eventually settled on the logic that the core components like the fusion reactor and drive systems were likely standardized, with the external components and armaments being swapped out to adapt the base model to different combat roles. Take rocket engines, for example. There are some NASA and US military rockets that have had the same underlying design since the 60s, but the output has nearly doubled through iterative improvements and modifications. Even with the same model, designs are continuously evolving and morphing through iterative modifications.
There’s a concept in engineering known as “baroque technology” – the tendency for systems to accrue more and more superfluous ornamentation and auxiliary subsystems over time, growing increasingly complex and convoluted. But the external “shell” of a system can be freely altered and reconfigured as needed. With the rise of technologies like industrial 3D printing, we’re reaching a point where one-off production is becoming feasible.

Inoue: The Gyan is a perfect example! (laughs)

Nagase: In a sense, it really does harken back to the notion of hand-crafted machinery, doesn’t it? One could imagine that each and every Zaku is painstakingly made by master artisans. (laughs)

Inoue: Who knows, perhaps the mobile suit industry will give rise to a new class of elite 3D modeling and technical drawing specialists. (laughs)

Nagase: The challenge is always finding that perfect synthesis of an aesthetically striking exterior design with a functional and convincing internal structure.

Inoue: The ATs in Armored Trooper Votoms follow that same sort of logic.

――The core frame and armament loadout remain consistent across variants, right?

Nagase: Absolutely, and when you really think about it, to field mobile suits in significant numbers, you have to assume a certain degree of modularity and mass production via assembly lines. There’s simply no other way they could sustain that level of mechanized warfare given the economic and industrial realities. Within the context of the Zeta Gundam timeline, we see a setting where the Earth Federation has experienced a relative decline, and various splinter nations and factions are vying for power and influence. Strategic resources are scarce. So my theory is that behind the scenes, you’ve got a couple of giant megacorporations peddling mobile suits to these countries one after another.

Inoue: Profit-driven military contractors that leverage technological innovation for their own financial gain, basically. (laughs)

――In a way, it almost feels like the real world has gradually caught up to the geopolitical landscape depicted in Zeta Gundam, hasn’t it? (chuckles)

Nagase: Take tablet computers for example – nowadays we take them for granted, but they actually made an appearance in 2001: A Space Odyssey, released all the way back in 1968. If you watch carefully, you can spot crew members using them aboard the spacecraft docking at the space station, as well as in several shots of the main character interacting with them.

Inoue: The students in Mobile Suit Gundam F91 are often depicted using tablet devices as well.

Nagase: Incidentally, prior to Zeta Gundam, the lunar cities in the Universal Century weren’t referred to using the “Von Braun” naming convention. A little bit of trivia – I’m actually the one who came up with the name “Von Braun City” for the lunar settlement. (laughs) But with worldbuilding details like that, it’s very much a collaborative process, so there’s not much I can point to and say “This was my idea and mine alone.” A lot of it is just borrowed from pre-existing concepts in the first place.

Inoue: The Cyber-Newtype angle, on the other hand, emerged more from the storytelling side of the equation.

――What about the Garuda?

Nagase: The initial concept was my idea, but Director Tomino had expressed a desire to move away from an overreliance on Minovsky craft as a plot device. But let’s be real, seaplanes are every mecha geek’s dream. If you had a fleet of three or four Garda-class planes perpetually circling the stratosphere on patrol, you could conduct a ground attack anytime, anywhere. You could even take out spaceships in low to medium orbits.

――I’m curious to hear your thoughts on the depiction of Jupiter and the Jupitris.

Nagase: The idea of extracting helium from Jupiter was already a thing in the O’Neill cylinder proposal.

Inoue: The idea of sourcing raw materials from the Moon, asteroids, and other celestial bodies rather than lifting them out of Earth’s gravity well is a pretty standard part of space development plans. I must say, I would have loved to see a more extensive depiction of those floating Jupiter helium-3 extraction and processing plants in action. Come to think of it, what do you suppose a Zeta Gundam is made out of?

Nagase: I didn’t have a particular image in mind. Once the “Luna Titanium” explanation was introduced in the original series, it felt more or less sufficient as a storytelling device. I didn’t see much need to belabor the point further. Votoms has more of an overt “steampunk” mechanical aesthetic driving its worldbuilding, but I highly doubt any of the mobile suits in Zeta Gundam are meant to be made of steel, for instance. (chuckles)

――To wrap things up, what are your overall impressions of Director Tomino as an individual, if you don’t mind sharing?

Nagase: He’s certainly a… challenging figure to work with at times, let’s put it that way. (laughs)

(Everyone bursts out laughing)

Nagase: He would often regale us with anecdotes and stories from his student days at Nihon University’s College of Art. I recall some discussions about things like how muscles are attached to the human body. He also had a habit of flying into these theatrical fits of creative frustration at regular intervals.

Inoue: Oh, I know exactly what you mean. He’s the kind of guy who puts on a show for himself. (laughs)

Nagase: He was rarely seen without those distinctive Russian rubashka shirts of his. You got the impression that this was a man who had navigated a long and twisting path through life. An absolutely captivating individual on an intellectual level, to be sure, but perhaps not someone you’d necessarily want to be around day in and day out. (laughs)

(Another round of laughter from everyone)

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